tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5424255638293718915.post7894430789687683941..comments2024-03-18T01:10:51.745-05:00Comments on neuropathology blog: How do you calculate a brain tumor's MIB-1 index?Brian E. Moore, MD, MEdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17503916201692804693noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5424255638293718915.post-2985353391279579762013-04-30T14:58:47.952-05:002013-04-30T14:58:47.952-05:00Please refer to a paper I co-authored with a bunch...Please refer to a paper I co-authored with a bunch of people, notably DANA GRZYBICKI<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11745208<br /><br />It has a fairly easy method to get KI-67 counts. We found a lot of variation in the ability to make these counts.<br /><br />If you have easy access to a camera, you can also try http://153.1.200.58:8080/immunoratio/henry brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09117374993639075323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5424255638293718915.post-87320056775450693772013-03-22T08:42:56.091-05:002013-03-22T08:42:56.091-05:00Thanks, Pedro.
I think the discussion might be cl...Thanks, Pedro.<br /><br />I think the discussion might be clarified if we all perused this study:<br /><br />How Reliable Is Ki-67 Immunohistochemistry in Grade 2 Breast Carcinomas? A QA Study of the Swiss Working Group of Breast- and Gynecopathologists.<br /><br />http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0037379#pone-0037379-t002<br /><br />from which I excerpt the first sentence in the discussion: <br /><br />"The principal outcome of this quality control effort is that interobserver variability of MIB-1 labeling index in breast carcinomas is (i) more problematic than we had expected, (ii) not easily explained by obvious confounders such as the immunostaining technique and the selection of the tumor area, (iii) not reduced by (meticulous) counting versus (rapid) eyeballing, and (iv) not improved by efforts to standardize what exactly are MIB-1 positive nuclei and where and how to count them."Agent 86noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5424255638293718915.post-27468604816900686492013-03-22T08:08:54.371-05:002013-03-22T08:08:54.371-05:00Well, in one hospital in the Boston area, people t...Well, in one hospital in the Boston area, people take a digital photograph of the "hottest" field, print it out in color, and manually count the total number of cells and of positive cells. <br /><br />In another hospital, people do the same thing, but instead of printing the picture, they use ImageJ for the counting in a similar way as described by shipcoldoc.<br /><br />In yet another hospital, the picture is printed in color, the paper is folded twice (dividing it in 4 quadrants); the total number of cells in the left superior quadrant is counted and this is taken as a "representative sample" of the total number of cells (i.e. multiplied by 4); then they count the total number of positive cells in all quadrants, and estimate the MIB. <br /><br />In those 3 places, the minimum number of cells counted is about 400.<br /><br />Agent 86's is probably the best practical approach :-)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04547945001223636521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5424255638293718915.post-11642481656611133302013-03-21T20:03:56.378-05:002013-03-21T20:03:56.378-05:00I usually estimate, as Martin has said. When I re...I usually estimate, as Martin has said. When I really need a precise number, what I do is follow what Dr Chochrane suggests for steps 1 and 2 (make sure the stain worked and pick an area with highest staining) and then I take a digital photomicrograph, or if the cell density is too low to get about 1000 cells in the photo, then two of them. I use a program called "ImagePro Express" which has a "manual count" feature: you import the image, and can click with the cursor on each nucleus and mark it with a colored dot or triangle or square so that you don't count it twice (I worry about that with any other method using a hand counter and just one's eyes). That way I can count all the positive nuclei with one color tag and all the negative ones with another color tag, and the program keeps track and ends up giving me the raw data, the percentages, and will export it all to Excel. This gives 3 significant figures and actually doesn't take too long.<br /><br />We are working on using a program for automated counting from whole slide imaging files...and plan to publish some data from that when we have completed the project. Can't say more until then, except that testing this automated method against the hand-counted version of the same image with ImagePro Express showed a very close agreement.shipcolldochttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565353468786579592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5424255638293718915.post-26224226541410139812013-03-21T17:36:56.359-05:002013-03-21T17:36:56.359-05:00I would be certainly interested to learn how many ...I would be certainly interested to learn how many cases can be accomplished per day using this highly sophisticated approach.<br /><br />Frankly speaking, for routine diagnostic purposes I just estimate the proportion of stained nuclei (being reassured that my estimations nicely fit those of other experienced neuropathologists as well as laborious counting efforts of young eager scientists).<br /><br />Anyway: does it make a difference if the Ki67 proliferation index accounts for 15%, 17% or 18.5%? In most situations, an estimation of "low" , "moderate" and "high" would certainyly suffice.Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5424255638293718915.post-58900997692856891562013-03-21T17:29:50.877-05:002013-03-21T17:29:50.877-05:00To paraphrase Paul Terry (founder of Terrytoons an...To paraphrase Paul Terry (founder of Terrytoons animation studio);<br />Whenever I feel the urge to do an MIB-1, I lie down until the feeling goes away.Agent 86noreply@blogger.com